PDN: In previous interviews you have noted that Chekhov’s short stories, how he wrote about “simple, everyday things… without guff or show, simply described, with nothing proscribed,” had a bearing on the shimmer project. At what point did the relation between the shimmer images, which you have called “filmic haiku,” and Chekhov’s short stories occur to you?
PG: About halfway through, when I was beginning to understand what worked, what didn't, and the potential it had. I read an interview discussing Chekhov's writings, and that cemented it as a valid way of working.
PDN: American Night dealt with the African American underclass, as do certain portions of shimmer. What interests you in this aspect of the American cultural landscape?
PG: American Night deals, among other things, with the underclass, a lot of whom happen to be African American, though there are White and Hispanic people in there too. Anyone with their eyes open in the United States today cannot fail to be concerned about the “Fracture Social” as the French call it, which does fall often along racial lines.
In respect of this question, I would like to make it clear that a shimmer of possibility has a positive and uplifting aspect, and I believe that work is essentially an optimistic and life affirming one—look at the pictures of the young brother and sister playing basketball in the twilight, or the dignity of the man cutting that huge grass hillside in the rain and sun. Both these examples are African American, as it happens.
PDN: Were you aware of a sense of optimism as you were making the photographs—was it something you could feel and see in your subjects—or were you simply concentrating on composition and esthetics? Did you realize the optimism present in the subject matter before you imposed your structure in the edit?
PG: Don't misunderstand me—it’s not only “optimistic”—that's one quality it possesses. Good work is many things all at once. Optimistic. Sobering. Documentary. Fiction. Poetic. Journalistic. If you simply start out thinking “I'll make optimistic images of people across America!” you are quickly going to end up with a trite piece of nonsense.
PDN: You have mentioned that you switched from film to digital capture in the middle of the shimmer project—were you ever concerned about visual consistency?
PG: I find this a tedious issue. People make way too much out of the digital versus film. The challenges in photography—focus, crop, shutter, aperture, and of course the biggest ones of all, the ones that really matter: what you actually point the camera at, and with what intelligence you use it... are all still there, completely unchanged. So quite whether that camera records the information with a piece of celluloid or a piece of silicon is of little significance. Get over it. I doubt anyone can go to the MoMA exhibition and tell me 100 percent correctly which images are digital and which are film.
PDN: At the SVA event you noted that nostalgia has been an unfortunate factor in recent interest in the work of certain photographers who were influential to you. How do you think social documentary work changes once the immediate context passes?
PG: Ah—the other D word: “Documentary”! The answer to that lays in looking at the work of Lewis Hine, August Sander, Bill Brandt, Robert Frank—all excellent photographers, all great artists, and thank goodness for them. Or how about quoting Walker Evans:
“I'm sometimes called a 'documentary photographer' but... a man operating under that definition could take a sly pleasure in the disguise. Very often I'm doing one thing when I'm thought to be doing another.”
PDN: In your 2008 essay on Tod Papageorge's book Passing Through Eden, you wrote that art made from “life as it happens… is regrettably viewed with suspicion in the art world. Misunderstood as a collection of lucky moments, fortuitous observations, or simply 'documentary', it has been bypassed or overlooked by many curators, writers and collectors who muddle it up with photojournalism, and are attuned mostly to assessing what the artist created.” Given that your work is currently hung in MoMA, and that you are having a mid-career survey as well, are you satisfied that the art world now appreciates work made directly from “life as it happens” and has realized its errors?
PG: Well, it's not a question of "errors." Of course Cindy Sherman's Film Stills, or Mapplethorpe's portraits, are stunning bodies of work. So is much of Jeff Wall or Thomas Demand or... My point is simply that the art world is traditionally attuned to perceiving what the artist “created,” which in photography usually means that they pick up more on work with a synthetic quality—constructed scenes, Tableaux Vivants, staged pieces—these fit neater into this expectation and fit into the broader art world model of “what artists do” much easier. However, the great photography which operates at the core of the medium—from Frank to Eggleston to Shore to Winogrand—doesn't fit that model, as it is taken from life directly, unscripted and unforced. That creates problems and is often misunderstood or marginalized as 'documentary' or 'observational.' Now nobody in their right mind can deny the power of what Frank did, or the best of Eggleston, or Robert Adams, but sadly there's a lot of folks that don't get it, and prefer the traditional model.
Having said that... there's a lot of blame to lay in the photography community itself, for the plain dumbness and lack of discrimination that burdens the medium. We should fight that and be smarter and more discriminating in what we do, say and promote. It's an incredible medium, alive and direct, but we need to engage our hearts and minds in aspiring to make truly great work, that put any doubts beyond reach.






























